What Happened at the Kunduz Hospital Airstrikes? Details Are Starting to Emerge | VICE News

Just days after an attack on a hospital run by Doctors Without Borders (also known by its French name, Médecins Sans Frontières, or MSF), in Kunduz, Afghanistan, Army General John F. Campbell, the senior military commander in Afghanistan, was called to testify before the Senate.The attack killed 22 and injured 37, and MSF called it…

Just days after an attack on a hospital run by Doctors Without Borders (also known by its French name, Médecins Sans Frontières, or MSF), in Kunduz, Afghanistan, Army General John F. Campbell, the senior military commander in Afghanistan, was called to testify before the Senate.The attack killed 22 and injured 37, and MSF called it a “war crime.” The organization described the airstrike as “a series of aerial bombing raids at approximately 15-minute intervals,” beginning at 2:08am and lasting for more than an hour. MSF maintains that both US and Afghan authorities were made aware of the exact coordinates of the hospital as recently as September 29, four days before the bombing.”A hospital was mistakenly struck,” Campbell said during his testimony. “We would never intentionally target a protected medical facility.” Nonetheless, Campbell confirmed that the decision to attack the hospital was “made within the US chain of command.”The details of the airstrike on the MSF hospital remain under investigation. However, there are a number of details about the airstrike and the process for its approval that are known.The city of Kunduz was seized by the Taliban a month ago. The operation that included the airstrike on the MSF hospital was part of a major counteroffensive by Afghan forces, with the assistance of US Special Forces, to retake the city from Taliban militants.Related: Taliban, Helped by Foreign Fighters, Makes Inroads in KunduzThe airstrike on the hospital was not just a spur-of-the-moment decision; rather, it was the end product of detailed planning and coordination. Long before Afghan troops began operations on that night, with US Special Forces serving in an advisory role, there were detailed preparations to ensure that both US and Afghan forces had adequate close air support — in this case an AC-130 gunship circling thousands of feet above the battlefield.In military-speak, an attack, or the use of a weapons system on a target, is referred to as “fires.” The call for fire is a concise message prepared by the observer on the ground, in this case a member of US Special Forces, requesting fires on behalf of the ground forces, Afghan soldiers in this case. This call for fire is facilitated by a joint terminal attack controller (JTAC), usually a member of the Air Force, who has specialized training in calling for fire during close air support, which is the application of fires against hostile targets that are close to friendly forces.This request is sent from the JTAC, who accompanies US Special Forces, to US military authorities in Afghanistan. Those authorities review the request, determine its legality, and pass this information back to the JTAC.This review process, known as targeting, “is the selecting and prioritizing of targets and matching the appropriate response to them.” The targeting process always includes a determination of the legality of the target and requires commanders to take steps to “avoid excessive incidental civilian casualties and damage to civilian property.” It is fairly likely that a US military lawyer signed off on the Kunduz attack.Early in the targeting process, a no-strike list, which contains objects or entities protected from military operations, such as hospitals, is compiled. Targets on this list may be removed if their status has changed; for example, “medical structures that functions (sic) as a weapons storage or barracks facilities may lose their protected status and may be legally attacked.” In other words, it doesn’t count if you paint a big red cross on the side of a fortress and call it a hospital.Targeting for the strike on the MSF hospital would have occurred in a relatively short period of time — likely only a number of minutes — because the request was coming from Afghan forces who reported they were under fire from the hospital. Even with the compressed timeframe, however, all the same questions would still be asked: Was the MSF hospital on the no-strike list? If so, did the hospital lose its protected status because it was being used by Taliban military forces? Does targeting the hospital comply with the Law of Armed Conflict?Watch the VICE News Documentary The Afghan Interpreters:These are all questions the commander would have answered, with the assistance of his staff and military lawyers, before authorizing the strike on the MSF hospital. Because the strike on the hospital is under investigation, however, the information necessary to answer these questions has not yet been released to the public.During his Congressional testimony, Campbell confirmed that the airstrike on the hospital was carried out by an AC-130 gunship. The AC-130 is a converted cargo plane, packed with advanced sensors and communications equipment, featuring multiple cannons, machine guns, and other weapons sticking out of the left side.

Source: What Happened at the Kunduz Hospital Airstrikes? Details Are Starting to Emerge | VICE News

I’d like some more details before passing final judgment on this incident (for instance, did the JTAC actually see enemy fire coming from the hospital), but more and more I’m becoming convinced that MSF allowed Taliban forces to occupy the hospital, and fight from it.

Understand, when that happens, the hospital loses its protections under the Law of Land War. A commander might make the judgment that an enemy violation of the sanctity is minor, and not enough to justify an attack, especially in our age of social media. Or he might determine that the attack is both legally justified, and sufficiently important to achieving his objective that bad publicity is justified. Or, alternatively, it’s simply possible MSF is lying, and never identified the hospital to coalition forces.

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  1. timactual

    I doubt that MSF had any say in whether their hospital was occupied or not.

    In any case, the important point is not whether the hospital lost its legal protection but whether the decision to attack it was necessary or advisable. How much fire was being taken by the Afghans? How many casualties did they take?

    This was not a new situation. It has happened before, and the result is always an international stink that gives our enemies aid and comfort and damages the war effort. As far as I am concerned, whoever gave the order to fire on that hospital needs to be relieved, if not court martialed. New information may change my mind, but I doubt it.

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  2. ultimaratioregis

    I would submit you might feel differently if you were being shot at from the hospital. The “international stink” needs to be met with someone possessing the gonads to say “if you put combat forces in a hospital, it loses its protections and becomes a viable target.” Same is true of mosques, etc. “Shoot at us from there, we will knock the hell out of it. Don’t like it? Don’t do it.” With a copy of the Geneva Convention in hand, for reference.

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  3. xbradtc

    I expect commanders to exercise their best judgment as to whether the stink or the military objective is more important. And if they operated on the best available information, and did so in accordance with the law of war, I’m not going to punish them. Rather, I’ll support them.

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  4. Pave Low John

    So what “new information” would change your mind? Sounds like you’re ready to hand out sentences to Leavenworth already. Good thing we don’t actually turn our men over to the UN or the ICC on the say-so of anti-American journalists.

    As for me, I'll be damned if I'll take the word of a bunch of asshole French NGO-types over the results of an after action report written by U.S. military personnel.  But if it feels good to play Monday morning quarterback with the lives of some SF guys in theater, then go for it, everyone else (including our sorry-ass CINC) seems to be doing just that.
    

    And if that team was taking fire from that hospital or whatever the hell it was, I hope that gunship lit it up like nobody’s business. Because like URR mentioned, the Geneva Conventions (and the Hague Conventions before that) forbid the use of medical facilities as military fortifications. Sucks for the non-combatants in that situation, but that’s what makes war so awful. Giving the Taliban or whoever the idea that they can use hospitals as get-out-of-jail-free cards will only guarantee the future commission of these kinds of “war crimes” (which reminds me, I haven’t read any reports on anyone charging the Taliban with war crimes for any of their appalling tactics, including the use of IEDs and suicide bombers in civilian areas. I wonder why….)

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  5. madmarsupial

    Ignoring the most obvious cause of this (Fog of War), even if you think there is some enemy fire coming from or near a hospital (or insert other politically sensitive area) it falls heavily into a grey zone marked with “just because you can doesn’t mean you should.”

    Yes, the other side doesn’t fight fair. That does not mean you get the right to totally abandon all your higher standards just because ‘the other guy started it’.

    You either shoot at hospitals or you don’t. Making excuses later doesn’t wash.

    This also explains why the Marines hated it when the RAAF was flying CAS in Iraq…much tighter ROE.

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  6. ultimaratioregis

    Bullshit. The rules are actually quite clear. Use of hospitals for military purposes, to include storage of weapons and ammunition other than individual weapons, firing from, or directing fire from, such a facility, immediately removes all protections under Geneva and LLW rules.

    People who think otherwise need to get shot at from one for a good little while. Or lose someone to that fire. And then they should have to write the parents or wife and explain why their son was killed by an enemy firing from a place where we didn’t think it was nice to shoot back.

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  7. madmarsupial

    The rules are clear, but the facts are not and the needed interpretation and judgement can be very complex. Your overly simple ‘binary’ judgement is the type that comes back to bite you in the backside – exactly where folks find themselves now.

    At what point is a hospital being used for military purposes?
    Does a couple bad guys creeping over the fence or across the roof and letting of a few rifle rounds all of a sudden make the entire hospital a legitimate target of an airstrike? Maybe if you interpret the rules in a simplistic way, but you’d better be ready for some serious butt hurt from the international community and media. YMMV but a few small arms rounds allegedly coming from the general area of the hospital does not justify nuking it from orbit.

    So unless you can point to evidence of weapons storage or some ‘serious’ outgoing fire at this hospital then you are still fairly considered to in the wrong. That is where this situation is at the moment. The Afghan and US forces are on the back foot because they screwed up (even if it was likely a total accident). There doesn’t seem to be any evidence presented so far that the hospital was a base for enemy action – it was merely in the crossfire.

    Both sides of this argument need to see that this incident is just an innocent screw up. No one deliberately targets MSF. Guys on the ground were under fire and asked for help. They either didn’t know the hospital was there or in the confusion of the firefight had lost situational awareness (i.e. forgot exactly where the hospital was). Guys in the AC130 let rip quickly to save their buddies without double checking their maps or with someone back at base. By the time the dots are joined there have already been a few passes…then the PR machine has to spin up to speed.

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  8. ultimaratioregis

    One has to wonder just what will happen with the facts given the anti-American bent of both the world media and the US media, and the anti-military bent of this Administration. As alluded to above, that target had to be cleared through a very rigorous (far too rigorous, when time means lives) process. US SOF was very likely on the scene. I trust their judgment far more than the Monday morning second-guessers and finger pointers, such as yourself.

    Maybe you can volunteer to walk in the lead fire team of such an op, and gather the facts yourself and make nuanced decisions while green tracers are kicking up dust all around you. You can leaf through a twenty page ROE and try and decide what rules fit being shot at from a hospital best, under the circumstances. That way you are guaranteed to stay out of trouble. Because you will very likely be dead.

    By the way, it was your assertion that “we either shoot at hospitals, or we don’t”. So save the bullshit about the “binary judgment” and learn something about what the hell you are talking about.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. madmarsupial

    Neither of us will ever know what really happened and I doubt that neither the Pentagon or MSF will be able to adequately ‘prove’ their case either. I doubt even the guys involved in this action could put together a coherent and consistent account.

    MSF would not have allowed any combatants to set up on their turf without a reaction. They’d have tried to get rid of them, informed someone or moved themselves out. They are not stupid and they are not going to make a target of themselves.

    I don’t expect someone under fire to read or recall a 20 page ROE, but I do expect highly trained soldiers not to be so totally naive that knowingly calling in a strike on a hospital isn’t going to come with some serious repercussions. That being said I think it is highly likely that the ground controller didn’t realise the significance of the target buildings.

    In general I think “If in doubt, don’t” is probably the best adage here with respect to an airstrike. Withdraw, disengage, go the long way around, come up with a better plan, wait. Sometimes you just have to suck it in and do it a harder way. Sometimes taking a ‘short cut’ doesn’t lead to the best result.

    As for your call on trusting US troops completely, I’m going to disagree. No ground pounder likes being shot at and he’s always going want a bigger response rather than a smaller one – and if there is a fuck up like this, he isn’t going to admit it in a hurry. That’s why we have some decisions being taken further up the chain of command (or should have been in this case). Perhaps my opinion is coloured by my experience of how the ADF operates.

    The US can write its own ROE, but it must own the consequences – and you don’t get to write those. Others are writing those for you now and it is something you have to wear.

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  10. ultimaratioregis

    Get a grip. Bad guys use MSF facilities all over the place for insurgent activities, because they know they are powerless to prevent it. “When in doubt, don’t”? Get out on patrol and engage in some firefights and then determine how stupid such an assertion is. If you go looking for a fair fight, I want you nowhere near any of my Marines. Because you are a naive, foolish, dangerously ignorant man.

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  11. timactual

    “I would submit you might feel differently if you were being shot at from the hospital.”

    Nope. Been there, didn’t do that. Besides, feelings are irrelevant. The MISSION, so I have heard, is counter-insurgency not force protection. That requires our side to be more popular than the other side, not just the baddest MF around. Also, any competent infantry force should be able to cope with an enemy squad without resorting to mass destruction.

    “Giving the Taliban or whoever the idea that they can use hospitals as get-out-of-jail-free cards will only guarantee the future commission of these kinds of “war crimes””

    The Taliban don’t give a rats hindquarters whether they get away with it or not. Having us destroy a hospital and kill the patients is a victory for them. Like I said, this isn’t anything new. Killing a sniper or two isn’t worth the political damage.

    “… whether the stink or the military objective is more important….”

    The political goals are more important. The reason for being of a military is to support political goals. Counter insurgency IS a political goal. We spend millions of dollars every year trying to teach officers that very idea. Evidently not very successfully.

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  12. timactual

    “Maybe you can volunteer to walk in the lead fire team of such an op, and gather the facts land make nuanced decisions while green tracers are kicking up dust all around you.”

    That’s why they have to clear it with someone not quite so involved, with a more objective evaluation of the situation.

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  13. timactual

    “Get out on patrol and engage in some firefights and then determine how stupid such an assertion is. I”

    Speaking of stupid assertions, what makes you think we have not been on a few patrols or in a few firefights?

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  14. ultimaratioregis

    If you have been in some firefights, and I know you have, then you should damned sure know better. And XBRAD’s point was precisely that the mission was cleared by higher, in a quite rigorous process.

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  15. madmarsupial

    I think timactual has summed it up best:
    “That’s why they have to clear it with someone not quite so involved, with a more objective evaluation of the situation.”

    Last time I was in London I had a couple of pints on a floating bar known locally as the ‘Belgrano’ with one of the smartest men I know (he’s OF6 and well respected). Whilst we were solving the world’s problems (as you do over a few pints) he summed up the US defence and security situation very neatly by saying all you really needed to do to understand the fundamental problem was to watch the opening sequence of ‘Team America’. Harsh, but true.

    ultimaratioregis – you and your leatherneck buddies will be first on my list to call if I need to storm a beach or get into a bar fight in Wan Chai or a pub fight in Townsville. If I have a police action or something involving an insurgency then I’ll be calling someone else.

    As for me? I was never happy to be shot at and I was particularly unhappy when someone did actually manage to hit me. Luckily it was a ricochet with so little energy left and it didn’t break the skin (it did leave a nasty mark up my jaw line though!). The most excitement I’ve seen in recent years is a couple of stints driving a desk in a secure compound in Pakistan, but I did learn where to get a beer in Karachi if you need one.

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  16. ultimaratioregis

    Police actions have a nasty tendency to look an awful lot like wars. As for “US ROE”, what I described regarding use of hospitals is the Law of Land Warfare, and the Geneva Convention. Which is why someone with gonads from this Administration (difficult, if not impossible to find) should stand up and say so, and let the “consequences” be on the brutal and terrible enemy who routinely violates all the rules of war.

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  17. madmarsupial

    I’m sorry, but I’m still going to disagree. The world also seems to disagree too.

    What you seem to be saying is:
    – One shot from hospital compound = immediate violation of convention and justifies immediate and heavy bombardment.

    I’m trying to say that this is perhaps a little bit over the top – possibly even counterproductive.

    It would seem that having bigger gonads simply leads to more pain when you get kicked in them. You don’t need bigger balls – you need to use your brains. Thinking with your balls is what got you into this mess in the first place.

    The worst thing is that the Pentagon made it worse by totally fumbling the initial reporting and presenting a number of revised scenarios, thus demonstrating that they are both inept and had no real idea what happened. Is it any wonder that the US is coping a beating?

    $10 says no JAG signed off on this before the AC-130 went live, and folks have been backfilling the story and paperwork as soon as they realised what happened.

    To think that I once thought the Howard Government staffers were the dimmest bulbs…

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  18. madmarsupial

    Might have replied to ultimaratioregis in the wrong part of the thread…

    He’ll work it out. Seems like a bright lad.

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  19. ultimaratioregis

    Pardon if I don’t think we should fight according to what “the world” agrees with. And your assertion that, not only do you not trust the US servicemen involved, but that they are rapidly falsifying documents and committing conspiracy, disgusts me. I have not found such behavior except at the senior ranks, and that only due to political pressure.

    Your assertion that “brains” is what is needed is also pretty weak soup. Australia’s foreign policy, in fact her entire defense posture, relies very heavily on the US power and balls you so disparage. Without it, decide which dialect of Chinese you would like to learn, Cantonese or Mandarin.

    If you took the time to read the post above, you would discover, even if you cannot glean from my comments, that it was not “one shot from a hospital”. It was known enough to be an approved target, and likely a known location for insurgency activity. Like several of the mosques in Ramadi, stacked floor to ceiling with T-72 anti-tank mines, ammunition, RPG warheads, etc. The galactic stupidity of having a lawyer in the targeting process, I shall not address, though it is certain there was for any approved targets.

    It has been a number of decades since I was a lad, by the way. As for intelligent, I dunno. But I am smart enough to know not to try and please the peaceniks and leftists at the cost of the lives of my Marines.

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  20. Diogenes of NJ

    BZ – Pave Low John

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  21. madmarsupial

    “Pardon if I don’t think we should fight according to what “the world” agrees with.”
    – Then don’t complain when the criticism starts coming at you.

    “And your assertion that, not only do you not trust the US servicemen involved, but that they are rapidly falsifying documents and committing conspiracy, disgusts me.”
    – Lets ignore that I’ve actually witnessed folks attempting this, but are we talking about the same US servicemen who thought that ‘hi-jinks’ at Abu Ghraib was an OK plan? I could go on – but I think the point is made that no one is perfect and all people are capable of some sick stuff no matter where they come from or how well they’ve been trained or brought up.
    In defence of US/Coalition personnel, it usually isn’t one single deliberate decision to knowingly do something that is clearly wrong. It is often many little mistakes and omissions that slowly end up going somewhere scary, often without anyone noticing it until stuff is starting to fail the smell test.

    “I have not found such behavior except at the senior ranks, and that only due to political pressure.”
    – Roger that.

    “Your assertion that “brains” is what is needed is also pretty weak soup.”
    – no, it is spot on. Fight smarter, not harder.

    “Australia’s foreign policy, in fact her entire defense posture, relies very heavily on the US power”
    – true. Our foreign policy is a bit of mix and mess.

    “and balls you so disparage.”
    – not so true. Sometimes we cringe at what you do.

    “Without it, decide which dialect of Chinese you would like to learn, Cantonese or Mandarin.”
    – Beijing has already chosen that for everyone. Just ask someone in Hong Kong! 😛

    “If you took the time to read the post above, you would discover, even if you cannot glean from my comments, that it was not “one shot from a hospital”.”
    – I was questioning your reasoning for how you decided that a hospital might lose it’s protected status. Obviously I am not saying that there was only one round ever fired.
    Neither of us have seen the after-action report on this and there has not been a clear answer in the news reports.

    “and likely”
    – but not for sure?

    “Like several of the mosques in Ramadi, stacked floor to ceiling with T-72 anti-tank mines, ammunition, RPG warheads, etc.”
    – no one seems to have found these yet. Just sayin’.

    “The galactic stupidity of having a lawyer in the targeting process, I shall not address, though it is certain there was for any approved targets.”
    – Lawyers (or someone more distant in the chain of command) are needed because history and prior-performance tells us that it is needed. The stupidity is equally as often on the ground making the fire support request…

    “It has been a number of decades since I was a lad, by the way.”
    – same here, it is merely a turn of phrase.

    “As for intelligent, I dunno. But I am smart enough to know not to try and please the peaceniks and leftists at the cost of the lives of my Marines.”
    – Intelligence, training, common sense. All related, but work differently.
    Did you ever consider saving the lives of your Marines by backing up a couple of steps and thinking up a new plan? (i.e. one that does not revolve around an airstrike to a sensitive target?)

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  22. ultimaratioregis

    Mosques packed with munitions? Common occurrence. Saw them myself. Along with Red Crescent “humanitarian aid” packed with 82mm mortar rounds, RPG warheads, AK magazines, belts of 7.62×54, heading to Ramadi and Fallujah. Did a good deal of that hot, filthy work personally.

    ME decide how a hospital loses protected status? Try Law of Land Warfare and the Geneva Convention. Give them a good read. The rules are clear. It will make your opinion somewhat less reactionary and somewhat more informed.

    As for the idea that one can “back up a few steps” and what not, a nice luxury to have, but not always possible. You should know that. The author’s point was that the target made it through to prosecution, so someone (actually, a bunch of someones, with a lawyer in the process) thought it enough of a risk to both authorize it on the list and approve prosecution.

    Your assertions in these comments, that MSF facilities aren’t used by enemy forces, that US personnel violated the law of war and are now conspiring to cover it up, shouting “Abu Ghraib!” as if it is somehow relevant, your assertion that higher headquarters has a clearer picture of what is happening tactically, your empassioned belief in lawfare, they all make you sound like a US State Department Democrat. And no, that is not a compliment.

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  23. timactual

    “It was known enough to be an approved target, and likely a known location for insurgency activity.”

    Sure would like a source for that. My efforts have not turned up much.

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  24. timactual

    …”then you should damned sure know better”

    I do know better than to call down air strikes on civilians because of a few sniper rounds. Particularly when the official strategy is to show the civilians that we are actually the good guys who won’t kill them for our convenience.

    “the mission was cleared by higher,”

    Which is why I said “whoever gave the order to fire on that hospital” should be relieved (i.e. “higher”)and not whoever called for fire on that hospital. In 1994 back there was an incident where two US helicopters were shot down in Iraq by US fighters. They, too, were “cleared by higher”.

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  25. ultimaratioregis

    Source? From above:

    It is fairly likely that a US military lawyer signed off on the Kunduz attack.Early in the targeting process, a no-strike list, which contains objects or entities protected from military operations, such as hospitals, is compiled. Targets on this list may be removed if their status has changed; for example, “medical structures that functions (sic) as a weapons storage or barracks facilities may lose their protected status and may be legally attacked.” In other words, it doesn’t count if you paint a big red cross on the side of a fortress and call it a hospital.

    “A few sniper rounds”…

    Sure would like a source for that. My efforts have not turned up much.

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  26. madmarsupial

    Mosques/schools/ambulances packed with munitions is an old trick, but I don’t think anyone has shown that this hospital had this going. You treat these locations with suspicion based on experience – you can’t prejudge fully. Does the enemy take advantage of this? You bet they do. Is that fair? No it isn’t. Do you get to kill ’em all and let someone else sort it out? Well, that’s what we’re arguing about here…

    You keep bleating “The rules are clear”. My whole point is that situation is never clear and then your trigger point for reacting to any possible violation is too low, your reaction is too large, and you have zero consideration of the collateral damage or political fall out. Again I point out that just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. Timactual was spot on – basically you achieve your objective but fail your mission. The world is more nuanced than you seem to realise. Answers are mostly in shades of grey, often with blowback in shades of brown. Grunts only see one shade of brown. The blokes in the Prime Minister’s office have a Pantone colour swatch book full of shades of brown.

    I know tactical options can be limited and you don’t always have the luxury of options (or good ones) – but quite often folks don’t look for them because it is harder work or they are never asked to think to find them. I’ve seen many people get too reliant on certain things that they struggle to function when they don’t get it. No, you don’t have top cover or someone on overwatch. No we don’t have a better/newer sat image for you. Now go do your job…sorry.

    The fact that this may have made it through an approval process (I still think that this is a bit questionable given the timeframes mentioned) demonstrates what other militaries and other countries (the civilian bits) find worrying about the way the US evaluates targets and sets ROE. Hence the political fallout.

    I have suggested that if there was any enemy action from this hospital it was likely minor and on the periphery (it is a large and open city block with what looks like an orchard on the sides), thus not justifying an airstrike and the collateral damage to civilians and NGO staff. Your magic room full of RPG or mortar rounds hasn’t been found…

    I have not said that US forces have violated the rules of war – merely that they have overreacted in a way that has killed more civilians than necessary, created a political stink and for little military benefit.

    I think people are more likely ‘covering their asses’ rather than engaging in a ‘cover up’.

    My mention of Abu Ghraib is a relevant example (of many in the public domain) when you seem to be saying that US personnel can do no wrong. If you are going to claim to be ‘Holier than thou’ then you’d better actually be right.

    Headquarters rarely has a clearer picture of what is happening tactically, but they can make a clearer strategic decision on sensitive topics – you know, like killing French doctors. People are funny about stuff like that.

    “they all make you sound like a US State Department Democrat. And no, that is not a compliment.”
    This I find funny because I had to deal with the AUS equivalent of this. I do agree with the sentiment.

    Summary:
    – Your attitude is the reason people higher up make these calls. You are only thinking tactically and only about yourself/your squad.
    – The fact that there are so many dead/wounded civilians is the reason other militaries have different ROE to the US.
    – That this is a total PR cluster is indicative of weak management by the military and others (insert your comment about State Dept. weenies). If you don’t KNOW then keep your mouth shut, never be afraid to stall until the correct information comes in, and for the love of God don’t make up the answers on the fly.

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  27. ultimaratioregis

    You mention all those things I “seem to” be saying. I said none of those. My attitude, I do suggest, is why Marines followed me into the shooting match. And did not have to “curse his staff for incompetent swine”. Read the applicable documentation. LLW and Geneva. As for “holier than thou”, you might wanna grab a mirror.

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  28. madmarsupial

    I guess that we might as well call time on this one because we could play tennis with each others comments for days all we are going to achieve is to demonstrate that Timactual is the smartest guy who commented on this thread.

    It is clear that we view the world through a totally different lens. Who knows wether we have those views because of the jobs we’ve done, or whether we’ve chosen to do those jobs because of the views we had?

    One thing is clear:
    I’d have sucked at being a Marine and doing your job, and you as sure as hell would have sucked at doing mine.

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